Shamu: 鱼眼看美国,以及中国

托的:
You seem to know more about China than I do. Just a few points I want to share with you:
1. While prostitution may be prevalent in China, it's not THAT open as you thought. During my trip back in China, I stayed in two decent hotels in Chengdu and Shanghai for seven days in total. I did not receive any call from strangers.
2. I don't want to discuss (and cannot really tell) who's low class and who's not. But the fact is the sheer number of gentlemen clubs only means one thing--there must be enough demand to support their business.
3. I don't think the difference between us can be elevated to "cultural differences". Not all Chinese would agree with me and certainly I can find American who share the same thoughts.
4. I never underestimate how religous and conservative Americans can be--just look at the popularity of W. After all, I live in a midwest small town and I'm surrounded by such people.

Shamu,

For some reason, I think you taking what I'm saying as some kind of attack. I obviously don't know more about China than you do -- and never implied that. I do know more about American culture than you do, however. ;) I simply said that most Americans who have been to Asia would tell you that prositution seems more common there than here. I was basing my comment on Chinese hotels from what other Chinese have told me, and Americans I know who have lived there. So even if it is only "somewhat" common in China, that would be a huge difference compared to here. Because here you would get that kind of call at a hotel about 0% of the time.

- of course there are plenty of those clubs in the US. And of course there are people that go to them. That doesn't mean it is mainstream or that it is common for people to go to them. There are also plenty of gun stores in the US, but over 75% of Americans don't own guns and have never been to a gun store. And, yes, most Americans do think it is low class to go to that kind of place.

-- I think it is a cultural difference because IN GENERAL (obviously we all know individuals who think differently) Chinese and Americans seem to have different attitudes towards prostitution -- and its level of social acceptability and prevalance are quite different in the two cultures.

Tuodi:
Not to attack you but I think you (or the friends who told you about China) are oversimplifying things. You claim you are not implying you know more about China than I do, yet you are making all these observations as if you've been to China for a long time. But whatever you say, do realize China is a country of 1.3 billion people, and this type of oversimplification will simply not work. Add to that the incredibly change that's taking place day in and day out. There's no way to understand it until you see it with your own eyes.

Shamu,

Well, either prostitution is more common in Asia compared to the US or it isn't. I mean, that isn't a question of oversimplification - it is either a fact or it isn't. So my contention is that it actually IS more common in China (and Asia in general) than the US. If we agree on that (you seem to resist it), then we can argue over WHY this difference exists.

About the 1.3 billion, I could say a similar thing about the US -- the US has about 300 million people and a population that is way more culturally, racially, and religiously diverse than China -- so it is just as hard, if not harder, to generalize about.

In any case, I was mainly talking about the US, anyway, not China. The reason I didn't even try to give an explanation regarding prostitution from a Chinese point of view on my blog is that I don't pretend to know the explanation.

If you re-read my comments above, you will see that I was almost exclusively talking about American attitudes, not Chinese. The only thing I said about China was in regard to prostitutes at hotels. Are you saying it is not more common to get "one of those calls" at a Chinese hotel compared to an American hotel?

I agree that there are no simple explanations, and it is easy to oversimplfy things. But I didn't really offer any explanation about China in this case. Because I really don't know what Chinese men think about this issue -- which is why I read your blog. ;)

I have 2 friends who are from 2 different families. One is never play Majiang, and looks down on Majiaang player. She thinks it is kind of low class favorite game. But another one often plays Majiang with her parents, relatives or friends at home. For her, it is a ordinary game for Chinese.

So if a foreigner only talks with one of them, he/she must get totally different impression of Majiang in China.

我觉得你们两个人谈论的好像不是一件事情，到是争论的蛮热烈的嘛。不知道我说的对不对，托的的观点是中国的prostitution比美国看起来要多上10倍。而SHAMU的观点是给这个现象提供了解释：为什么中国的P业繁荣? 因为美国小孩很早就有了性，所以不大用的着。因为美国人有其他的口味，他们喜欢Strip Show之类的，所以也不大用的着。不过Strip Show 和Prostitution是不一样的两件事情。
而且我觉得托的并没有宣称中国人喜欢Prostitutes或者怎样评价P行业，他只是从旅馆的提供色情服务的电话中有了这个印象。
如果单单比较两国的色情业，当然美国的态度是更加的开放一点，因为很多的色情业都是合法的，包括网上方便下载的色情小电影。不过这些跟prostitution都没有什么关系。我的确也觉得在中国prostitution更普遍，虽然是偷偷摸摸的……

You guys...

1. The ratio of men to women is much greater than it should be in China, meaning millions of young men can't find a women. This creates the main demand.

2. The second demand comes from married men. Chinese is going through a belief shock. While communism is no longer a ideal, what should people believe in? Without a belief, people has limitted guidance in behaviors. In USA, most of people are religious. So married men tend to be out of line in China.

3. In thousands of years of Chinese history, women suddenly realize making money can be so easy, comparing to work hard in the corn field. Think of profits and disutility, it is a natural choice for many women who don't have strong belief.

4. Men is varity seeking, at least in sex. Sex between married couple in China can be very simple. Prostitutes can do much more other stuff, which considered "dirty" between married couple. Between American couple, this is not a problem. This creats desire.

well....what do I　ｋｎｏｗ．

：）

I was merely trying to give my explanation to the ? in Tuodi's blog. I don't understand why Tuodi thinks I'm in attack mode.

Let’s forget the “p” issues for a moment. Talk about gambling phenomenon for a little while. I live in RI, which is the neighbor of CT. Two casinos in that area generate more Asians than Americans. People doubted: What indeed drag them come to this city for spending money, are those Asian rich enough or only because of the cultural prevalence.

Go back to the topic now. We all know that both “P” and “G” issues are legally forbidden in China, which restrains human basic instinct – money desire and sex thirst. But seems both are not an issue in America though.

It might be true that local Chinese don’t get many/any “calls” in the hotel rather than American travelers do. But it doesn’t mean that “p” is the comment phenomenon appears in China more than in America. In the high end hotel (in US), American may not like to have “P” service in the room, but instead, sex exchange and sort of “entertaining” are possible during the group travel. We shall also say that people can easily get the “escort” service phone number by turning on your TV, why there should be any “calls” coming direct to the hotel room then.

The same as to “gambling” issue: as what I know, gambling is restricted in certain cities of America. But I’ve heard that spend “little money” on the table is normally happened in the country club as one of the entertainment. Does that mean, in the high class place, we should make up some so-called name to cover up the “fact” (like Shamu talked about “P” in the article-- “the way Americans refer to this sort of things, like “gentlement’s club”, “bachelor party” “escort”).

Juju,

You and shamu are making the same mistake: strip clubs and bachelor's parties have NOTHING do with prostitution. You both seem to equate the two. Also, I don't know what you mean by "sex exchange and sort of “entertaining”". You both seem to be saying that there is just as much prostitution in the US as in China, but in the US it is just called something else (to make it sound respectable or 'romantic'). This is just false. We can talk about porn, strip clubs, bachelor's parties, etc., all you want -- those ARE more common in the US. But those are NOT prostitution.

I think both ltjy and 小慢 made good points.

I guess what confuses me is that shamu's post set out to explain why there is more prostitution in China compared to the US, and he gave possible reasons for it. I disagreed with his reasons on the American side for several reasons. But after his post, he seemed to give arguments why prostitution is NOT really more common in China. And he then also denied that it was a "cultural difference" - even though he gave "cultural" reasons in his post for the difference.

So, to get anywhere in this discussion, we first have to decide if P is more commmon in China or not. Then we can debate the "why."

Tuodi:
I'm sorry but where have I ever debated with you that I do not agree with the fact? Can you point it out to me? All I said that was remotely to what you might think were disagreeing with the fact was that "While prostitution may be prevalent in China, it's not THAT open as you thought."(See Comment #2) and backing it up with my own experience this summer. From the VERY beginning I made it clear that I want to "offer my explanations", but not to debate whether the claim is right or not. I just don't understand why you insist on this.

Shamu,

I never said prostitution was prevalent or "open" in China. I said Visiting prostitutes is probably 10 times more common in China than in the US. I used the "hotel call" as an example of how it seems more common in China compared to the US. I never said anything like "at every hotel in China you will be called by prostitutes." So when you say that I am pretending to "know more about China" than you do, I don't know what you mean, because we seem to agree that prostitution is more common in China than the US. I never offered any explanation for this difference on the Chinese side.

Anyway, maybe 小慢 was right: we are arguing about two different things, and that is causing confusion.

Tuodi, if you didn't mean prostitution is more prevalent by saying "Visiting prostitutes is probably 10 times more common in China than in the US". Then it's my misunderstanding and I'm totally confused. I've made it clear, from the very beginning, again and again, what I'm trying to say. I don't understand why you kept stressing your point. Of course we are not talking about the same thing, anybody with a clear mind can tell. I wasn't the first to use the term "attack" and I've kept to my topic all along.

Shamu,

You are missing the point: "more prevalent" does not mean "prevalent." For example, let's say that 10% of Chinese men visit prostitutes and 1% of American men visit prostitutes. Would anyone say that 10% is widespread, prevalent, or "open?" But at the same time, it would be 10 times as much as American men. Just like your strip club example. Maybe strip clubs are 100 times MORE prevalent here than in China, but that does not mean strip clubs are common, widespread, prevalent, or mainstream in the US.

So, yes, I was all along saying that it is MORE prevalent in China compared to the US, but I was not saying it was prevalent within China (that seems to be what you thought i was saying).

Tuode,

"10% of Chinese men visit prostitutes and 1% of American men visit prostitutes"

That could be true as what I said in my comments regardless the places of "prostitution" happened, Chinese have been restricted for not doing any illegal "things" since long time such as prostitution. But, since it is not a open service, people are more curious to do it "in darkness". I was wondering how you can tell that Chinese men visit prostitutes more than Americans do? We have larger population then your country, obviously, counts as number of visits, we shall have larger number than you do.

Still the same theory, Americans tasted "sex" life since very young age, another words, you guys have more experiences than Chinese men do. They couldn't have any possibilities to have other experience beyond the "marriage" life. So, shall they just try to have an affair for the marriage breaking risk or just go for the prostitution once while they were away from home then just go back home pretending nothing happened. I still doubt the percentage of the prostitution visits of Chinese men you applied above. They should concen the same like Americans (you said), once time try will however affect to the marriage no matter for "p" or just an emotional affair. I guess the emotional affair will be even worse.

One problem you gentlemen have is the act of making observations on very little data. On the American side there probably are pretty good statistical studies on what Americans do (i.e., percentage who visit prositutes, etc.). I do not know if there is any data available for American perceptions of Chinese, and also if there is data available about Chinese habits.

One also needs to take into consideration that the American social environment changed rather dramatically after WWII. Prior to the 1950/1060s almost all major American city had a red light district, not dissimilar to what exists in China (and Vietnam), and prostitution was illegal in the US as it is in China and Vietnam. I suspect if one compared American social behavior, from the end of the American civil war to WWII, to modern China, one would discover a lot more similarities than one would have guessed. I do not know if that is really useful to this conversation, but it does put it present a slightly different viewpoint.

As for receiving a late night call, that occurred to me only at one hotel, two nights in a row. I was invited and I accepted an invitation to go on an annual trip with an American company. I forget the name of the place, but it was South of Hangzhou, as if you were to go to Yellow Mountain. We stayed at a Chinese resort hotel. I received the telephone calls between 10 and 11 pm. They were not calls for a prositute, but rather a call for a massage. Whether that was a front or not I do not know as I did not avail myself of the service.

Tuodi: Let me say it one last time, I was only tempting to give you my comments (which not necessarily addresses your question, which I never claimed). I have no interest whatsoever in discussing what YOU want me to discuss. After all, this is my blog. If you feel I didn't address your question, that's fine with me. But saying I was in attack mode I simply cannot accept it. This will be my last post in this comment section.

JFS and Juju:
Thanks for making some meaningful comments, especially offering your own experience.

Shamu, did you notice that I've been called "complacent ignorant Chinese" from some American eyes.

I have a comment to make on the idea of Chinese polyamoury. Until the WWII era, it was completely LEGAL for Chinese men to have more than one wife (the number one wife, the number two wife, etc.) and expected of him if he were a rich, virile man.// In fact, one of the most famous senior citizens in Taiwan has 100 sons! Obviously, he has multiple wives. Though it is technically illegal in this day and age to be polygamous, it is not the kind of thing that is ever pursued by the law in Taiwan.// America has never been polymous in law (except for the Mormons). Speaking of Mormons, that is probably why there are so many of them in Taiwan and China!! The Mormons and the Chinese have at least this one thing in common!!